David seduced Bathsheeba – why did Bathsheeba bath in the open

bathsheba

I listened to a radio program on Sunday. The exhortation was about the need for Christians not to yeild to temptation, especially from the opposite sex. With the story of David and Bathsheeba as an unrighteous example: “David seduced Bathsheeba”, my thoughts got running. Here’s Wikipedia’s account of David and Bathsheeba:

The story is told that David, while walking on the roof of his house, saw Bathsheba, who was then the wife of Uriah, taking a bath. He immediately desired her and later made her pregnant.

In an effort to conceal his sin, David summoned Uriah from the army (with whom he was on campaign) in the hope that Uriah would re-consummate his marriage and think that the child is his. Uriah was unwilling to violate the ancient kingdom rule applying to warriors in active service.[2] Rather than go home to his own bed, he preferred to remain with the palace troops.

After repeated efforts to convince Uriah to fertilize Bathsheba, the king gave the order to his general, Joab, that Uriah should be abandoned during a heated battle and left to the hands of the enemy. Ironically, David had Uriah himself carry the message that ordered his death. After Uriah was dead, David made the now widowed Bathsheba his wife. Continue reading: click here

The thoughts on my mind were the following:

  • why did Bathsheeba bath in an open space….up to the point of being seen by David who was walking on his roof. I want to believe that her husband Uriah had enough resources to provide his wife with a decent abode, much more a good bathroom.
  • If David could see Bathsheeba from his roof, it could also be concluded that Bathsheeba must have known that she would be seen / spied upon wherever she chose to bath.
  • did Bathsheeba always bath in this open place where her “glory” would daily be seen / lusted upon by whoever could see her? men walking on their own roofs? didn’t she have any sense of privacy? Whereever she was bathing must have been so open that David saw all he could see and decided to consume his lust.
  • or perhaps, did Bathsheeba bath in the open purposefully to entice David – perhaps she knew he was at home. There was no account of Bathsheeba and her husband having any children before David “seduced” her. Perhaps she did what she did because she wanted to conceieve, even if it meant enticing King David, as they were obviously not too far neighbors.
  • giving Bathsheeba the benefit of the doubt of bathing in the open, why didn’t she refuse the invitation to commit adultery with the King. She could have reminded David she had a husband – even at the last minute. While it takes two to tango, her “sleeping with the King” looks like a one day event: “David sent his messengers to bring Bathsheeba, and he lay with her?” no questions asked?

I concluded that as much as David was guilty, Bathsheeba was twice as guilty, and although David was made a scapegoat, Bathsheeba should not have been let to go free. God could have reprimanded her through the prophet(who showed David his sin).

The radio pastor then linked the story with todays women who dress scantily and parade their nakedness up and down – knowing fully well they are attracting lustful attention from the men around them. He mentioned that being tempted is not sinful but yeilding to tempation is the real sin. Now, if yeilding to temptation is the real sin, does this give the tempter the right to go on tempting? If Mr. A tempts Mr. B to eat something poisnous, and Mr. B eats it and dies, why is Mr. A allowed to walk free?

Now the floor is open, let us discuss!

  • why was Bathsheeba bathing in the open?
  • was Bathsheeba guilty of adultery? or was she just obedient to the King?
  • if yeilding to temptation is a sin, are tempters sinful in their tempting attempts?

Your thoughts and opinions are welcome.

39 thoughts on “David seduced Bathsheeba – why did Bathsheeba bath in the open

  1. You see,the truth is that both the tempter and the one tempted are bnth guilty and must be punished. In the beginning at the garden of Eden, God punished the serpent/Eve the tempters and Adam/Eve the tempted.The woman and girls who no longer wear bra and pants but deliberately and wickedly expose their breasts, laps and buttocks shamelessly in order to entice the gullible,hungry men should be punished severely as the serpent and Eve was punished at Eden. Some of these shameless,devil incarnates even go to church without wearing bra aod pants to seduce the pastor and other worshippers.Some go the lecture hall without wearing bra and pants just to seduce the lecturer. A student of Uniport deliberately went to the lecture hall late.She walked up to the front and sat on an empty seat.She then consciously and deliberately opened her leg to show the lecturer her dirty vagina since she has refused to wear pant in order to divert the attention of the lecturer to herself. Luck ran out of her the God fearing lecturer loudly and openly told her to close her dirty legs. She was so ashamed that she not only closed her dirty legs but carry her bag and left the hall. That served as deterent for other daughters of Jezebel in the school. Bathsheba must be punished for seducing and making the anointed King David to fall if you are woman or girl reading this write up, I beg you,please continue to wear your bra and pant and encourage others to do so. Your breasts and vagina should only be shown to your man in the secret. I beg, respect your self.Don’t turn Nigeria to Sodom and Gommorah.When you go Hell fire, there you can expose everything for your real Husband and Master.

  2. Actually, public bathing was the norm all over the world until about 60 years ago.

    In other words, Bathsheba bathing in the open was irrelevant because in those days EVERYBODY except for the very richest people bathed in the open and it was normal.

    David was completely at fault.

    But of course men always try to pin the blame on women, and stupid women always try to put the blame for the actions of men on women. Just like the commenter above me.

    Bathsheba did nothing wrong. David needs to own up to his own lust and get a fucking life.

  3. @sugarbelly,
    thanks for dropping by. I can’t confirm(positive or negative) that public bathing was the norm during the time of Bathsheeba and David. If public bathing was the norm, why would God give Israel laws against the lust of the flesh….especially men….considering that mothers, daughters, sons and fathers could be family-bathing at the same time.

    If David went peeping, that would be another story.

    And now that “public bathing” has stopped – so to say, why do women deliberately expose themselves. Perhaps that could be another post.

  4. Actually, a little research will lead you to all the confirmation you need. Private bathing among ALL strata of society is a relatively new phenomenon brought on by greater economic equality after the decline of most of the world’s monarchies.

    That being said.

    Nudity has no relationship or connection to lust or even sex.

    If seeing someone naked automatically meant that you would feel sexual desire for them, then explain to me why before stupid European missionaries forced Africans to wear additional clothing in spite of the unbearable heat, there was no daily mass rape of African women (most of whom for which being topless was part of normal dress)

    The point is, David lusted after Bathsheba for reasons other than the fact that she was naked. Her nakedness due to her bath was simply an added bonus.

    Lust is evoked by whatever your society associates with sex and lust. That’s why African women weren’t attacked by hordes of African men for exposing their breasts
    because exposed breasts were considered being fully clothed. Exposed genitals on the other hand would have inspired lust.

    That is also why in the Edo period, Japanese men were turned on by the bare feet of Oiran (Japanese courtesans/prostitutes). Japan is a cold country where it snows so of course layers and layers of clothes were considered normal dress. Therefore, even just exposing your feet was considered daring, hence it inspired lust.

    The idea that nudity is immoral or that public nudity is wrong is bullshit that was spread by stupid European missionaries and even stupider Arab Islamists.

    Just because something is ABC in your culture does not mean that it holds true for all cultures.

    Yes, TODAY, nudity might be strongly associated with sex but that is only because European culture successfully dominated the world in the late 19th and 20th centuries.

    If on the other hand, let’s say Igbos had conquered the world before 1880 and imposed THEIR culture and THEIR beliefs on the whole world, then everyone would be walking around with their breasts on display and even people who live in cold countries would be braving the cold by wearing see-through clothes.

    Afterall public bathing is the norm in Igbo culture (before we were forced to stop by bloody missionaries) and men and women bathed in the same place together so it was MIXED public bathing to compound matters. As far as we know, there were never any reports of people being raped or even molested at bathing spots or houses.

    God giving the Israelites laws against “lust of the flesh” is completely irrelevant to nudity. Lust is on its own a separate entity. If lust was directly tied to nudity or exposure of the body then the population of Saudi Arabia would have reduced to zero by now because we sure as hell know that none of the women there are exposing anything worthwhile enough to inspire enough lust for sex.

    As for women exposing themselves, well it is their body and they have a right to dress however they want in order to express themselves. You cannot and should not impose your own personal morals on other people. Just because you believe in XYZ does not mean that it is the same for the next person. Also, trying to justify why people should behave in a certain manner using YOUR religious beliefs makes no sense as whatever Biblical justification you come up with is immediately rendered irrelevant if the person you are addressing is not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.

    How a woman dresses should have no effect on another person. If you don’t like the way a woman you see on the street dresses, then the onus is on you to utilise the muscles in your eyelids and close your eyes. Or if you are in a position where closing your eyes is impossible or inconvenient, then please use the muscles in your neck and turn your head so that you can look at something else.

    Blaming women for the stupidity and lack of self control of men is unacceptable and cowardly. Men have spent the last millions of years finding every imaginable way to blame women for every imaginable thing. It is ridiculous. The only person responsible for your lust is YOU. No woman, whether swathed in bolts and bolts of material or not wearing even a stitch of clothing is responsible for the lust of a man. Men need to take responsibility for their thoughts and actions and fucking think about unclogging the toilet or some other mundane thing if they find themselves disturbed by unwanted lustful thoughts.

    Bathsheba’s fault my foot. David was an irresponsible bitchass.

  5. My good readers, I beg you to disregard the opinion of anybody who tries to make do what is evil. Dear women/girls continue to wear youq bra and pants to cover your nakedness. Don’t let any woman deceive to go naked like mad people. Just like God gave Adam and Eve clothing in the garden of Eden, he has given clothes to cover our nakedness. God will judge any woman or girl who encourages her fellow female folks to go nakedness in public.There is no religion that encourages its followers to go naked in the public Those who are preaching that anybody can put on whatever she likes are Satan’s ministers. They will join their Master very soon in Hell Fire unless they repent.

  6. Ukari C.Obene :
    My good readers, I beg you to disregard the opinion of anybody who tries to make do what is evil. Dear women/girls continue to wear youq bra and pants to cover your nakedness. Don’t let any woman deceive to go naked like mad people. Just like God gave Adam and Eve clothing in the garden of Eden, he has given clothes to cover our nakedness. God will judge any woman or girl who encourages her fellow female folks to go nakedness in public.There is no religion that encourages its followers to go naked in the public Those who are preaching that anybody can put on whatever she likes are Satan’s ministers. They will join their Master very soon in Hell Fire unless they repent.

    At which point did you not see where I wrote that using religion to justify your position is ridiculous?

  7. this one is a nice discussion.

    @Sugarbelly
    lets put the “bathing in the nude” aside. The reason I say so is because God created Adam and Eve in the complete nude, so I believe lust etc, etc and the 9-months preggy project was part of the plan, perhaps for the purpose of “replenishing the earth” as soon as possible. Note that it was when they sinned that he clothed them. The irony of this is that Adam and Eve had only 3-kids.

    What I want to ask you is this: you say that
    “How a woman dresses should have no effect on another person. If you don’t like the way a woman you see on the street dresses, then the onus is on you to utilise the muscles in your eyelids and close your eyes.”

    I’m not trying to attack you as a woman, but dont you think it would look very odd if a man wears a trouser that wont pull up over his waistline, making the divide of his buttocks visible as it goes down the shitty-aisle; won’t the society cry hey-wire if men begin to wear shirts that expose their nipples(some are doing it already), or trousers exposes 50% of their john-thomas’ in the open? or perhaps mini-skirts that give us the length and size picture. We might as well classify those kind of men as retarded, gay, homo’s, devlish etc., Now, why is it that when a woman dresses worse than what I have described, the whole world says shes sexy?

    I assume that even if men tell the woman shes sexy – for the purpose of encouraging women to continue showing their body-movies, the woman herself should be able to know that she is being deceived – since its obviously men that are enjoying themselves.

    In Nigeria for example, where our women are thickly endowed, I find it very offensive that these women will go fit themselves in size small jeans and blouses, will even find it difficult to walk down the street, talk less of the regular need to pull something up here and pull another thing down there. Enter public transport and you’ll have a handfull.

  8. @Segun: Sure, I might not exactly like the fact that the man walking in front of me has no belt, but that does not give me the right to harass him because of it.

    Also, our society has changed significantly in that our society (I mean Nigerian society) adopted values that normally are associated with 15th century Europe.

    The point is: If you remove the factor of European culture, then nobody would harass Nigerian women if we chose to walk out of our houses with our breasts on display because according to OUR traditional values, the choice between whether or not to show your breasts is a respected one.

    That being said, men encouraging women to show their bodies is irrelevant. It is a woman’s choice alone how much of her body to expose and if the surrounding men just happen to enjoy it then it still does not remove her right to her own body.

    Rather, it is the men who should be corrected for deriving illicit sexual gratification from someone else’s body without their permission. Men really need to stop making excuses for their own lack of self control.

    Sure, I too frown upon people that insist on forcing themselves into clothes that are too small for them, but that’s because I really don’t think anybody should be walking around wearing clothes that are not their size.

    Just because Europeans claim breasts are private parts does not mean that Africans must comply or conform to their rules. If OUR traditional values say that exposing your breasts is okay, then that is OUR culture and anyone who doesn’t like it can suck it. Afterall do Nigerians go to other people’s countries and tell them how to live? Or tell them that they must behave as Nigerians do or they’re not getting it right?

  9. Decent Nigerian women and girls are against your position. You don’t have any right in Nigeria to walk our with your dirty exposed for flies to petch.You are one those women who are breeding prostitutes in Nigeria and exporting to Italy. You better repent now or else those your dirty exposed breasts will burn in Hell Fire very soon!

  10. Decent Nigerian women and girls are against your position. You don’t have any right in Nigeria to walk our streets with your dirty breasts exposed for flies to petch.You are one those women who are breeding prostitutes in Nigeria and exporting to Italy. You better repent now or else those your dirty exposed breasts will burn in Hell Fire very soon!

  11. Ukari, get a life. You have not supported your position with even ONE logical argument since you started commenting on this post. If you are unable to state in a clear methodological manner why you are opposed to our traditions then stop talking to me.

    If I’m “one of those women breeding prostitutes” then you’re an overzealous lunatic. And speak for yourself. Nudity and decency have no relationship. There are many decent Nigerian women in villages that walk around with their breasts exposed. They have many good upstanding children and they are honest, hard working people. Are you trying to say you are better than them because you’re not.

    All you are is effectively brainwashed, which is why people like you never learn anything worthwhile because your obsessive religious doctrine is preventing you from putting two and two together to make four.

    And if you’re supposedly Christian, then you should know that as a human being you have no right and no ability to know where another human being goes after they die. By saying I am going to burn in Hell Fire you are presuming to know more than your God which is extremely disrespectful not to mention that you should know that such knowledge is far above your station.

    So, instead of running around pretending to be God why don’t you go think long and hard about some concrete reasons why you think exposed breasts are wrong and come back when you can say something that is actually representative of a thought process.

  12. St.Luke 13:3,5 says: “i tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”.

  13. Ukari C.Obene :Decent Nigerian women and girls are against your position. You don’t have any right in Nigeria to walk our streets with your dirty breasts exposed for flies to petch.You are one those women who are breeding prostitutes in Nigeria and exporting to Italy. You better repent now or else those your dirty exposed breasts will burn in Hell Fire very soon!

    @Ukari, you sure have something against breasts.lol. I like fire-brand believers but I detest “pudknockers and damners”, people who cannot form a reasonable argument to support their point. Imagine if all Jesus Christ said was “…will burn in Hell Fire very soon!”. Far as I’m concerned every human is responsible for their action, the lady for seducing, the man for being seduced. Bathsheba commited no crime for bathing outdoors because from all we can deduce she had always bathed thus, question is “why is David prowling around during bath time when he should be planning strategy with his commanders?”, “why would a man with WIVES be seduced by another man’s wife?”. As for Bathsheba not refusing, dude you just can’t refuse his highness King David.

  14. @Ukari,
    thanks for your comments, but please we do not encourage verbal abuse here. The post is supposed to be a healthy discussion with everyone expressing his/her own opinion, and thereby, perhaps we could learn from each other.

    @Sugarbelly
    re – your comennt#8
    My point is God was the one that clothed man and I believe as time went on, the women of those days would have covered themselves – to the point of been responsibly covered from one generation to the other. With time going on, and on till our present day, I just believe we should have improved on this “coverage” thing, and at least cover ourselves more responsibly than our fore-fore fathers covered themselves

    I can see you hitting on the men especially, but its all good…as you say “Rather, it is the men who should be corrected for deriving illicit sexual gratification from someone else’s body without their permission. Men really need to stop making excuses for their own lack of self control.”

    Is it men that really lack self control or women that make them loose their self control, and vice-versa.

    You know what, communication is either verbal or non-verbal. If a woman exposes her body, with her own full knowledge that she is exposing herself, how and why should men not derive any form of gratification without permission. Its like you see a good advertisement on the street and you keep on looking at it. Whoever put it there sure wants people to look. Is the exposure alone not enough permission? Will there be smoke without a fire? If you score a goal, people will clap for you, and if you miss it, we’ll all boo you, coz even though you didnt announce to us you are a footballer, and we saw you on the field of play all dressed up like a football player. Hope you get the point. The above also works vice-versa.

    Thats why I said with Bathsheeba bathing in the open, she was sending out an invitation letter to the general public, and as far as the time and place was concerned, David was just walking on his rooftop and it happened. It could have just been anybody. And yes, there might have been other cases (men taking other mens wives) like that which we never heard of(Biblewise), but this particular one was special coz it was David the king involved.

    I understand that David should have been more responsible, considering his position as king of the land, but maybe if Bathsheeba played her cards right, David would have played his as well. Tit for tat.

    Now this part of your really serious: “Just because Europeans claim breasts are private parts does not mean that Africans must comply or conform to their rules.”

    I can just imagine if 150million Nigerians come into this realization for just 24hours. Wont we say Nigerians have gone crazy? What on earth will happen.

    So why cant we go back to the old ages, just as our fathers, and dump all the influences weve acquired from right or left over the years. And did these Europeans ever make it a rule to define our breasts as breasts? – just for our information? By now we should have known better, don’t you think so? with all the educated folks we have around, both men and women? Now do you see the irony?

    Regarding our culture/tradition thingy, please note that my culture is whatever my father/mother told me his culture is which must have been whatever they(my parents) were told by their own parents, etc, etc. Each of these people would have also gathered information from whatever they saw happening in their time. A lot of these informations gathered by parental instruction, happenings around us and/or circumstances of life are many times wrong, and unfortunately, people dont see beyond that. Each generation would add its own salt and pepper, add/remove one thing or the other to favor themselves and their time.

    For example, I grew up wearing blue-jeans snickers and T-shirts. That wasnt the culture of my parents, they grew up wearing shirts and trousers, and my mom was all skirts. So which kind of clothing is right or wrong? and what should be our clothing culture?

    My point is, how come our culture in 2010 can still allow us to expose our private parts and tempt each other knowingly, and yet we cant draw the line between decency and indecency?

    @Black Knight:
    you said it right: Far as I’m concerned every human is responsible for their action, the lady for seducing, the man for being seduced.”

    Why shouldnt Bathsheeba refuse his highness King David, for whatever reason(Davids position as King, unknown consequences of her refusal, Davids physical charm, etc, whatever). She had a husband and could have stood up for her man. Won’t this supposition “she couldn’t refuse” give credence to superiors taking advantage of their subordinates, and these subordinates yeilding, as far as matters of the flesh are concerned.

  15. @mypenmypaper:

    Obviously you know very little about absolute monarchies because if you did you would know that in 99.9% of all monarchies in ancient times, disobeying a direct order from the Queen or King resulted in instant execution.

    So that just blows your argument about Bathsheba refusing out of the water.

    Secondly, yes you might say that your culture is whatever you learned from your parents, but if your parents parents were brainwashed by missionaries and they taught your parents the same drivel they were taught by these missionaries and then your parents in turn brainwashed you with the same nonsense then you are just as much a victim of brainwashing as your great grandparents were. The effects of the brainwashing aren’t your “culture” – you just claim they are because they align with what you have been indoctrinated with.

    Third, you are basing your argument on the idea that “God clothed man” from the Jewish creation story as if it is fact. This makes your argument just as ridiculous as Ukari’s because what proof do you have that the Jewish creation myth is the correct one out of all the hundreds of creation myths from all the thousands of cultures in the world? Your only basis for your assumption is the fact that you’re Christian, and religion is often irrelevant in arguments because people use their religious biases to gloss over facts and ignore logic.

    Fourth, do you even know what the purpose of clothes are? The PRIMARY purpose of clothing is to protect human skin from the elements and provide comfort from adverse temperatures. That means that it is a BASIC EXPECTATION that any human being who lives in a cold climate should wear MORE clothes while any human being who lives in a hot climate should wear LESS clothes.

    Therefore, does it not sound stupid to you to say that Nigerians who live in an undoubtedly hot climate should cover up? How do you think that makes any kind of logical sense? Missionaries were clouded by their religion (which developed in the relatively colder climate of Europe) and colonists were clouded by their stupid white supremacist and cultural supremacy views leading them to insist on wearing stifling additional clothing that was more appropriate for Victorian England under the hot Nigerian sun.

    Well guess what? Both groups of people DIED from heat stroke which just goes to show you that allowing religion to lapse your judgment is a VERY BAD IDEA.

    So, I do not know what you mean by “we should know better”. You seem to be basing your idea of what is “better” on what white people have dictated to Nigerians is “better” never mind the fact that these people are from a completely different culture and climate from us. There is no NIGERIAN basis for the requirement of additional clothing and certainly not for covering the breasts. It is simply the colonist-worshipping predecessor in you making these weak arguments on shaky religious grounds.

    Finally, what is “I can see you hitting on men” supposed to mean? How DARE you??? I had originally tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but it is now glaringly obvious that you are yet another ridiculous Nigerian man that thinks that if a woman does not conform to his primitive way of thinking then she must be morally questionable. How the fuck is that relevant to this discussion? As in seriously, is it that you have nothing better to say? Yeah, you might not agree with my position, fine. But at least for the love of CocoPops, if you’re going to make an argument then get some solid facts and draw some solid conclusions and back it the fuck up but don’t you DARE resort to this bullshit. It’s a weak tactic employed by spineless Nigerian men everywhere and frankly I am sick of it.

    Give whatever lame religious justification you will, but to say you “can see me hitting on men” when you don’t even know the first thing about me?

    You have some fucking nerve.

  16. @Sugabelly,

    na wah for you o, but I’m really enjoying this discussion.

    First, if you suggest Bathsheeba feared for her life and so submitted herself to David, then maybe I could try and accept the idea, but hey, how many Bathsheeba’s who had bathed inside their houses were harrassed before and after her?

    Second: what I meant by “our” cultures being a collective of whatever our folks passed down from one generation to another – and mostly wrong was just to strike back at your argument that Bathsheebas open bathing was her problem alone and shouldn’t be the problem of people around her. See, even if her husband saw her bathing outside, he would have called her in for a quickie.

    Third: FYI, I do not base my beliefs on any Jewish traditions or whatever you call it, I base my beliefs in the Holy Bible and so I finally see where you are coming from, no wonder your arguments are on the other side of the fence. If you don’t belief in Jesus, I have no problem with that. FYI, I grew up amongst non-believers and for sure everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, but you know what we all have in common, it should be common-sense.

    You are right to say that people often use religious biases to gloss over facts and ignore logic. Hope you know that there is no fact and there is no logic in a man / woman exposing his/her privates to the glaring eyes of the world all in the name of cold or heat. We could as well all go nude if really theres nothing wrong with it.

    Fourth: so what is really the primary purpose of clothing? I never thought this should be an argument, considering it should be part of common-sense. But since many new generation men and women don’t know what it is, cant you see how funny it is arguing over the idea?

    Yes, it is expected that people living in cold climates should wear more clothing than those living in hot climates. But is there no basic clothing that one should have on? Is clothing that covers ones privates not part of these “should be” basic clothing – which I suppose we should all know about? I’m not asking anyone to go don a blanket in Nigeria, twould be outright stupidity, but as well, any clothing that exposes what we all know as privates is not part of the basic deal. Such classifies as part of the stupidity we are talking about.

    If someone tells you he/she has a University degree and he/she can’t tell you the sum of 2 and 2, don’t you think there is a problem. Do you have to physically verify his certificate before we know whether his lack of knowledge for basic mathematics is unjustified.

    If a physically insane person walks along the street half clothed, we would blame the situation: he/she is insane and isn’t aware of himself/herself. Have you ever seen drunk people loose it? We blame the drinks, don’t we.

    Now, if an all-made up man/woman dresses the same way, either in Church or at work, all in the name of cold / heat or fashion, exposing the same privates that Mr/Mrs Insane is exposing, don’t you think there is a problem.

    You are very funny: “There is no NIGERIAN basis for the requirement of additional clothing and certainly not for covering the breasts”. Where did you get your idea from? Should there have to be a Nigerian basis for doing what I know is right to be done? The Federal government doesn’t really have to announce: go cover your breasts; before we all shape up, or?

    What I meant by you “hitting on men” was nothing personal, just that your views seem to absolve women of responsibility as far as indecency is concerned. Mind you there are indecent men too. Bathsheeba bathed in the open, David hit on her. If she didnt bath in the open, David wouldnt have hit on her: to me is plain and simple logic.

    If you carry a load of cash and start waving it around in public transport, don’t you think very soon someone will grab it from you and run away? Now as much as that person stole from you, the question is why the unnecessary advert. You could as well have put it in a bank if you had too much to handle.

    I am not trying to put women in some box, I’m just trying to say we all have a role to play. It takes two to tango as far as the discussion is concerned, thats all I mean to say.

    And why do you call Nigerian men spineless? has anyone offended you? Would you really call David a spineless man? He responded well to an illicit advert.

    P.S: for your last line, no trash talks here girl. And for your info, the ????ing word is not Nigerian either, and since it seems you have nothing wrong with Nigerian women exposing their breasts, tell me about tongue washing. Hahaha

  17. I do not base my beliefs on any Jewish traditions or whatever you call it, I base my beliefs in the Holy Bible

    This statement just proves everything I have said. Neither you nor Ukari know what you’re talking about.

  18. @sugarbelly
    guess you’re tired huh, or perhaps its you that has come to terms with my point ov view.

    How does my one statement prove anything, you have been talking about? BTW, what have you been talking about? Please note I joined the discussion coz Ukari’s statment looked like a personal attack, and I thought it could result in a barrage of words rather than a healthy discussion.

    Anyway, did you read the entirety of what I last said? And of all the points you raised in your arguments, which one alined with any dictates in the Bible – which I say I believe in? morality, decency in speech and physical appearance, responsibility of one person to another – male and female, etc? Is there any part of Islam that permits indecency as well? and which other religion, culture or tradition still existent in the Nigeria of today that would allow women to let it all out as you claim.

    Even the local Kings and Chieftains around us are now applying their number-6 into such issues.

    Leaving the Bible alone for one sec, which one of your arguments align with the ideals that should be the norm in a sane society of men and women who know what they are supposed to be, to and for each other?

    Girl, me-thinks you really don’t know what you are talking about. Thanks for dropping by anyway.

  19. Stay on the topic people.

    @penandpaper I agree with most of @sugarbelly’s opinions concerning african culture cuz Where I grew up it is perfectly normal for MARRIED NURSING mothers to walk around with their breasts uncovered, in fact it was a non issue until I went to secondary school and met city boys who were gaga on boobs.

    Now I can only say that you are examining the discussion at hand from a present day context, the question is “did Bathsheba bath at that spot because she knew David would prowl? or has she always taken her bath there?”. Also Bathsheba really had no say in the matter cuz of THEIR culture.

    Since you believe in the bible, you must have wondered why God didn’t punish Bathsheba for seduction(but punished Saul’s daugther for mocking). I think its because Bathsheba didnt have any conceit in the matter.

    @sugarbelly is talking from a global cultural point of view considering that their are still South American tribes that still go around TOTALLY NAKED to this day. I think you would get a better perspective of the issue if you apply the prevailing cultural practise at the time to a incident in any region. I remember reading Chinua Achebe’s book describing full-grown Igbo girls in the 1800’s running around half naked and the British Administrator having a fit over it.
    Culture is an ever changing thing, and trust me if you research deep enough you would discover it used to be fashionable in this part of the world to walk around naked.

  20. @mypenmypaper:

    Black Knight just explained it for you. in OUR cultures, nudity IS NOT immoral.

    You THINK it is immoral because Christianity not only converted people’s religions but it also FORCED them to adopt VICTORIAN ENGLISH CULTURE.

    And since England is a cold country then it only follows common sense to deduce that the only reason people there (in those times ) would have taken off their clothes would have been to bathe or for sex. In other words, Victorian English people DIRECTLY associated nudity with sex.

    Africans however, do not directly associate nudity with sex so there is no sexual implication about a woman walking around with her breasts showing.

    It was only when the British colonists and missionaries came to Nigeria that they felt that Nigerian women were being sexual whereas in reality Nigerian women were just minding their business and going about their day.

    It was the BRITISH that FORCED Nigerian women to start covering their breasts and used their crackpot version of Christianity (which they had tailored to THEIR OWN CULTURE) to justify it.

    And that is exactly what you are doing now. And the reason I keep telling you that your argument is daft is because you are not considering the fact that Breasts ARE NOT A SEXUALISED ORGAN IN OUR CULTURE.

    Finally, yes, that one statement you made revealed that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Why? Because any body who claims to Christian and does not know that 90% of all the stuff in the Bible, laws, behaviours, everything is DIRECTLY DERIVED FROM JEWISH CULTURE obviously knows nothing about the religion that they claim to follow. The other 10% of the stuff in the Bible is derived from European culture.

    And as for you talking about sane societies. I cannot take you seriously because you are basing your delineation of sane and insane on European values and not traditional Nigerian values.

    What you are effectively saying is that you want Nigerians to conform to European culture at all costs and if we don’t then we must be insane.

    Sorry but I don’t buy that, and apparently neither does Black Knight.

  21. Sugabelly is actually correct! infact in Nigeria a previously unknown tribe was in the early 1990s known as the Koma people; these Guys strutted around naked as in clothing was not their way of life and you can imagine their chagrin at being made to clothe up.

    In Zulu culture, it is perfectly normal for their girls to walk around bare-breasted and there is a tribe some-where in south-eastern Nigeria where the maidens are expected to dance aroung the town naked to mark their ascension into woman-hood.

    Up till the late 1900s, the wearing of blouses (otherwise known as buba) was largely unpopular among the upper echelons of Yoruba society and even to this day, Oloris in many yoruba towns only tie wrappers during major ceremonial events – the Christian extremists who advocate covering up of arms and shoulders would have a fit these days and blame it on immorality.

    The foregoing also hold true for many parts of Africa.

    The truth is that morality standards that are viewed as christian today are actually mostly relics of the Victorian age. In assessing modern standards of morality in Nigeria, the intent of the women under scrutiny should be eamined and not the fallacious statement that it is african culture.

    Food for thought: There are over 360 ethnic groups in Nigeria – are we speaking for the major 3 or all?

  22. Decency is a pretty relative term that holds different meanings for different people based on social class, religious affliation, personal values e.t.c In Lagos for instance, you are far more likely to see women in low income neighbourhoods sit in front of their homes with just bras on their chest and their kids on the thresh-hold of puberty playing around naked than in middle-class neghbour-hoods upwards.

    Members of Celestial Church slip into varying degrees of nudity when they go for their baptism.

    Contrast the above to anglicans in a middle-class neighbourhood.

    As a matter of fact, Men would sexually desire any woman even if she is clothed from head to toe – our imagination would fill in the gaps even if we have to conjure something form the outlines of their bodies in their burqa or just their voice! Why else would child-marriage be so prevalent in several ‘religious’ societies across the globe – whats the catch – their figure 8?

    Sexual impurity is mostly a function of society and peer-pressure for Men. If you are non-religious, non-drinker, non-smoker Dude in Nigeria and you are trying to stay away from fornication by personal choice, you would receive all sorts of tags ‘cos you cant justify this choice to the people around you unless you are a church-goer.

    Nigerian society (at least in the South) pressure young men to prove their ‘virility’ and holds young Women to different ideals – which Girls are they gonna practise on if not their peers!

    Every man is responsible for his own actions.

  23. @Leke: I am speaking for MOST with specific emphasis on Igbos because I am Igbo and that is where I know most of my information is accurate. However, it was not only Igbos who had very lax attitudes about clothing almost all Nigerian ethnicities did. And I have pictures from 1890s and below to prove it, so I don’t know what MyPenMyPaper is talking about.

  24. @Sugarbelly
    thanks for the historical updates. I understand the cultural point of view bruhaha, but it still seems to me you read only 1-line of the entire post and decided to make a comment. You are welcome anyway.

    You still dont get my point do you? are you really saying that all these ladies that are walking around in Lagos state (for example) in varying degrees of naked clothing are just being African? Girl, be real. They are wearing Jeans and Blouses and carrying phones around. A lot of them are university graduates, should they not know better? and are they thinking of being African by exposing parts of their bodies? So maybe their jeans and blouses are European or whatever, so maybe their phones are korean or Japanese, but the fact that these women are exposing their bodies and flaunting it with style is not African. geez.

    Early this year, I was in a bus and a lady enterned, she was just…..dont know how to call it, her nakedness just too much -early Monday morning. An elderly woman at the back called out to the lady, asked her wherever she was coming from, what her problem was, washed her down with a barrage of words, the lady was so ashamed, she had to get off the bus. I was both impressed and unimpressed at the same time. Impressed, with a thought running through my mind that there is still hope for this African generation, at least there are people who know what is right and wont mind saying it; and unimpressed coz I just felt the mommy at the back could have been more diplomatic in whatever she wanted to say so as not to cause a major embarrassment to the lady. Another thought in me wondered if she looked in the mirror before jumping out of the house.

    Sugabelly, its not an issue of heat or cold, Nigeria or England. Who cares? Ive lived in and out of Nigeria and while I’m still trying to catch up with Naija life, Ive sure seen stuffs worse elsewhere, but it would be wrong to say all the decadence in our own society is part of our Africanness.

    Our fore-fathers/mothers might have pranced around from farm to home to farm in the complete nude, but they werent doing so to entice anybody. They werent trying to entice their farmer-neighbors husband or wife. Today, such attires are primarily to entice same and opposite sexes / attract attention. Nakedness was a norm in the olden days, but that norm is no more a norm today. So theres no need to take us back ages and ages just to justify moral decadence today. Got it?

    And its not a matter of me trying to justify anything by Christian views, plzzzz. No one has to be a Christian, Muslim, Athiest or whatever to exercise common sense. Read the last major paragraph of my post again, and thats the part where I brought the Bathsheeba and David story home to our present day.

    @Leke Pitan,
    thanks, for the word: ” In assessing modern standards of morality in Nigeria, the intent of the women under scrutiny should be eamined and not the fallacious statement that it is african culture.”

    @Sugarbelly, again,
    hope you read Lekes quote above, if you still dont know what I’m talking about, then you are on your own. You can as well go around town exposing your privates and if someone walks up to you and asks you if youre in your right mind, just make sure you tell them you are just been an African. Pls dont mention you are a Nigerian. So you are Igbo, now I know where you are talking from.

  25. @mypenmypaper: You are simply ignorant about your culture and your country and nothing seems able to change that. Whether they are wearing jeans or not is IRRELEVANT. They have the RIGHT to dress like that if they want to because

    1. IT IS THEIR BODY

    2. THAT IS OUR CLIMATE

    3. THAT IS OUR CULTURE.

    How are jeans and a belly top that exposes your stomach different from a traditional wrapper and top that exposes your stomach?

    How is a miniskirt from America different from the traditional tiny miniwrapper that unmarried Igbo girls are supposed to wear?

    Your argument that the sourcing of the materials for their clothes are from other countries is ridiculous. That’s like you saying that if I carve a traditional Igbo door in the traditional Igbo design then it is not an Igbo door because I ran out of wood and had to buy some more wood from Ghana.

    It is clear to see from everything you have said (and I have read EVERY word you have said on this) that your only motivation in this argument is your religion. And that is what is preventing you from seeing logic.

    There is nothing wrong with the way university girls in Lagos dress. However there is something wrong with the way YOU think. And if you find yourself being turned on by a university girl’s clothing then YOU ARE THE PERVERT.

    And how dare you shame a woman for her clothing because of YOUR inability to control yourself?

    You are simply turning Leke’s quote on its head for your purposes. His point is that half of the morality claims people like you make that you claim are “African culture” are NOT actually from our culture but rather from YOUR FOREIGN RELIGIONS. e.g. Christianity

    But people like you like to pretend that Christianity is African culture so you can justify victimizing other people.

    I’m sorry but that is rubbish. If you want to follow European and Jewish culture then grow your hair long like Jesus and start wearing robes and robes of sackcloth but stop disturbing Nigerian women with this drivel about dressing.

    If you don’t like what Nigerian women wear then I beg you, use the muscles in your eyelids and CLOSE YOUR EYES.

  26. And you know what?

    Unlike you, I can actually PROVE that everything I have said is 100% TRUE and CORRECT.

    Where is your proof that wearing long nightgowns in the name of clothing is Nigerian culture??

    No seriously, because this argument is becoming ridiculous and I think it’s time we started backing up our statements with SOLID PROOF.

  27. @sugabelly
    I really don’t know where you are going with your argument sis, you really make me laugh. “It is their body, it is their climate, it is their culture” – pure bull. Nakedness might be a norm in the ages, but its no more a norm now, and theres nothing you can say to argue about it. Call a spade a spade girl, not a spoon. If indecency is your culture, then carry on girl. So why not just tell everybody from your village to strip naked.

    Do you have kids, and do you really sit them down to educate them which part of their body should be ideally exposed and which part is supposed to be “private”? And when they begin to expose what should be private, do you conclude its because of their climate and culture.

    You are not on point girl, pls apply your brakes. And I dont suppose you know anything about “your culture” if you are sure you are really Igbo. I should educate you. As I said ” You can as well go around town exposing your privates and if someone walks up to you and asks you if youre in your right mind, just make sure you tell them you are just been an African. Pls dont mention you are a Nigerian.”

    Peace out.

  28. Look at who is talking. I know more about my culture than you could ever possibly hope to know about yours.

    Stop being a coward. If you have a point. PROVE IT!! I’m tired of trading words with you because it’s obvious that no matter what I or anyone else here says you are completely impervious to reason.

    So, PROVE YOUR SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT.

    My side is taken care of. I have PROOF!! LOADS AND LOADS OF PROOF!! And I am ready to display at any time it is asked for.

    Where is your own proof hmm?? Please prove to me, Black Knight, and Leke that even one thing you have said so far is correct.

    I don’t care how you try to frame it. Your interpretation of decency and indecency is laughable at best and best of stuffy religious nonsense. And I AM Nigerian and I will say it proudly wherever I am so sorry for you.

  29. @Sugarbelly,
    You shoudn’t get so personal. Anyway, I have made my point and I can rest my case. You can still re-read my last comment.

  30. No adult can be held responsible for the behaviour of another. In the “culture” in which I was raised women exposing their breast in public is not illegal but it is definitely frowned upon. Very few women do it except to fulfill the usual demands of “fashion”.

    I agree with those who make the point that the way a female dresses and a man’s lust are not one and the same. However, saying that a female can dress “however she wants” is fraught with moral and actual danger.

    For example, certainly I have the right not to secure my home when I leave it, or not to lock my car when it is parked in a public place. However, because I know there are thieves and opportunists I have to forego this right for my own good. In some parts of Africa, I am told, women ought, for their own protection, to do the same. This does not say that men are right to sexually molest women, but a woman who wears “whatever she wants” in certain places and circumstances is being less than realistic. I lock my car simply because people steal. It is my right not to lock it, but even in paradise there are serpents.

    In the story of David and Bathsheba David is “the man” in the wrong and rightly so. He is the king, Bathsheba is the subject under his protection. She is also under his rule and possibly feels constrained to give into his desires. In fact, after what happened to her husband Uriah, a loyal soldier in the king’s army, we understand how “absolute power” had corrupted David. Bathsheba might have given in to adultery out of a real anxiety.

    Having said all of that, I remain of the opinion that we must take responsibility for our own “sins”. And to me the person who deliberately seeks to entice someone into sexual sin whether by dress or undress, must bear their responsibility, along with the one who knowingly and/or lustfully takes the “bait”.

  31. Up until the day I saw a sticker that read “Eve was framed” I never realy cared to think things the other way round. I find we all get too judgemental sometimes that we forget to read between the lines. The law has always protected the women folk, at least this account proves it didnlt just star today.

    I realy don’t have a problem with Bathsheba being exhornorated from the punishment. The law had to take it’s cause. Davind have had to bear the full weight of it because as King he was expected to live bye example.

    Come to think of it…The reason Bathsheba chose to bath in the open could have been because her name was Bath-sheba…Don’t you think?…LOL

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s